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Thread: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

  1. #31

    Default Re: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

    The dot or NTSB can say to a manufacturer t
    H ey your parts inventory has gone through 500 widgets out of 5000 units sold time for a recall .
    There is a practical limit to how big a single can get and I bet it's because of vibration.Even twins use counterbalanced nowdays.My 600 Yamaha vibrated so they added a balancer and made it a 660 when it evolved.A friends street legal xr650 shook like hell but had great power.I think a person's hands get more sensitive as they get older .The biggest single I can remember is Suzuki's 727 779 aka 750 and 800 big.I saw one in Sweden but they were not imported here we got thr 650.

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  3. #32

    Default Re: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

    Its all those big Multi brand super store dealers where Im at nowadays, the turn over rate in personnel is very high.

    I worked car sales for a year or so (many years ago). I really hated new sales, used sales was much better(although could sell either (new is just a lot more paper work) and people will drive down the road for $10, cause you can get the same vehicle in a 100 different places . Except for the fact that Used you have to compete with the dealer sometimes. They'd price a used vehicle on the lot and then find out its for sale on ebay for like $100 over cost. Its an ugly business, especially in todays world.

    Probably has something to do with both my automobiles have well over 150,000 miles(bought new), but they run as well and reliable as new ones, and sure occasionally I have the shell out 4 or 500 dollars for a repair, still cheaper than a car payment. So I'll run them till they just aren't reliable, which I don't see any time soon.

    I have a sport bike with 115,000 miles (bought new), runs as good as a new one , but I like riding the ktm, so it doesn't get much use. Now my 2015 ktm was rebuilt once and paid for, and in no hurry for new motorcycle payments, and Its as trustworthy as anything new coming off the floor. But yeah, years back I was always buying new cars , trucks and motorcycles every couple of years, but not anymore.

    The longest Ive ever kept a motorcycle was 5 years Honda cr500 , the Ktm 500 is about to surpass that , then I just realized , my sport bike is going on 14 years old. But I probably researched a good year before I bought the ktm, but I don't like to depend on Dealers, if I can help it.

    Ha when I mentioned tat 13 year old Toyota getting a warranty repair, Dealer service was like 13 years old and its never been back here till now, they noticed.

    you didn't mention the Dealer Name?
    Last edited by spud786; 11-07-2019 at 09:20 PM.

  4. #33

    Default Re: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

    Quote Originally Posted by pushstart View Post
    I think a person's hands get more sensitive as they get older.


    The above does not explain why my 690 was smooth for the first couple thousand miles I rode the bike and then began to have vibration.

    It also doesn't explain how I can I can ride my 525 EXC all day long with NO ill effects in my hands.

    The local dealer tried to say the problem I was having with my 690 was due to my age. I strongly disagree and I have solid reasons to back up my opinion. I've let over a half-dozen experienced riders feel the vibration with the bike sitting in neutral, engine running, and every one of those riders was appalled by the vibration. Most of these riders own at least one thumper, but they all thought the vibration in my 690 was excessive. Many of them had a "wow" expression on their faces immediately after they felt the vibration.

    What has happened to my hands is nerve damage. This has been verified by a board-certified orthopedic surgeon. The injuries are a function of how much the body has been injured by the vibration, and this has little or nothing to do with the age of the person involved, according to the orthopedic surgeon, who spent years and a lot of money on the training that gave him his knowledge and understanding.
    Last edited by 450Gauleiter; 11-08-2019 at 02:22 PM.

  5. #34

    Default Re: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

    Quote Originally Posted by spud786 View Post
    you didn't mention the Dealer Name?

    I prefer not to mention the dealer name in this thread. Besides, the reputation of this dealer is not exactly a secret and many local riders I know already have their own opinions about this dealer without me needing to say one word to them.

    The purpose of me posting this thread was to try to solve the vibration problem my bike has. I have complained about KTM USA and also about dealer issues, but the reason for those complaints was to make it clear that various entities which ought to be willing to help with the problem were not being helpful, such that I am somewhat "on my own" with respect to solving the problem. Given that the bike has roughly six months of warranty left, this should not be the case. If the situation changes and I receive help, I will be certain to post about it in this thread.

    At this point I believe the vibration problem is being caused by either an internal engine problem or a fault in the engine management system. The problem is not being caused by loose mounting hardware. I've thoroughly investigated that stuff and it is now certain the cause of the problem is not loose mounts.

    The vibration is coming from the ENGINE, not a wheel imbalance, and this is 100% certain because the vibration in the handlebars is the same whether the bike is stationary or moving down the road, and because the motorcycle rides perfectly smoothly at any road speed if the engine is shut off and the clutch is disengaged. I have suspicions that one or both of the balance shafts may not be correctly "timed", but at this time I am unable to confirm whether this is the case or not, because I am not going to disassemble the engine and give KTM a reason they can use to void the warranty on the bike.

    Some people have given the opinion that the bike would shake itself apart if the balance shafts were incorrectly timed, but I submit that if the timing of the balancers is only a few degrees off, the engine could vibrate more and yet not "shake itself apart". Anyone who remembers how earlier LC4 engines vibrated knows LC4 engine vibration can be significant yet the engine can run for a long time without a structural failure happening to the engine.
    Last edited by 450Gauleiter; 11-08-2019 at 03:00 PM.

  6. #35

    Default Re: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

    Quote Originally Posted by pushstart View Post
    The dot or NTSB can say to a manufacturer t
    H ey your parts inventory has gone through 500 widgets out of 5000 units sold time for a recall .

    I don't believe the NTSB or the DOT monitor the parts inventory of a motorcycle manufacturer. It's am amusing idea but I doubt such a scenario is found in the real world of the motorcycle industry in the USA.

    I am reasonably sure recalls happen because some person or group of people inform the NTSB or the DOT about problems. If enough complaints are received the government may then choose to order that a manufacturer take action. It is a practical impossibility for the government to monitor all the problems vehicles sold in the US have ; the government is thus dependent on people to let the government know there is a problem.

    Without sufficient complaints there is no reason for the government to "open a case"; this is probably why KTM was able to continue selling motorcycles which used the clutch slave cylinder that had an extremely high failure rate, with no intervention by the US government, despite the fact that a clutch slave failure can result in a very dangerous situation, which I experienced twice myself. Believe me, when you lose clutch function completely in heavy city traffic, things can get hairy quickly.
    Last edited by 450Gauleiter; 11-08-2019 at 02:58 PM.

  7. #36

    Default Re: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

    The new style 690 motor now has a 2nd balancer chain driven in the head.Take the cover of and check its timing marks.There is a guide between the rear cam sprocket and the balancer sprocket and on other type engines these can be moved around a little bit when torqing down the hold down bolt or bolts.I am just going by an internet photo.The lower balancer is gear driven and cannot jump time

  8. #37

    Default Re: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

    A manufacturer can begin the recall process by informing the NHTSA or the NHTSA can start one themselves once they are aware of a problem.First you have to figure out why the part failed.Was it a bad worker,poor material or poor design or other outside influence? Then you have to come up with a countermeasure that is successful .Not all of them are the first time around like Takata airbags.Making the improved part takes time as does informing the registered owners.Of course some manufacturers drag their feet hoping a problem remains"small". KTM has treated me and my friends well.

  9. #38

    Default Re: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

    Quote Originally Posted by pushstart View Post
    The new style 690 motor now has a 2nd balancer chain driven in the head.Take the cover of and check its timing marks.There is a guide between the rear cam sprocket and the balancer sprocket and on other type engines these can be moved around a little bit when torqing down the hold down bolt or bolts.I am just going by an internet photo.The lower balancer is gear driven and cannot jump time
    Thank you for your informative comments.

    Another dealer I've opened a line of communication with has agreed to look into the 690 for me on a warranty basis. I expect they will be willing to have a look at the timing of the balance shaft. I could do this myself but I am reluctant to perform work that could provide KTM with any justification for denying warranty coverage, so I am limiting my own exploration to the simple stuff that is not inside the engine.

    I own a KTM Repair Manual ( Art. No. 3.206.371 ) and it does have lots of photos, though the resolution of some of the photos is not as high as I would like. Certainly this manual is worth owning if you own a 690, and the cost of the manual is reasonable ( US $30. ).

    I am aware the lower balance shaft is gear driven but I am not 100% certain it is impossible for it to "jump time", and here is why : If the gear on the balance shaft starts out as a separate part and is installed on the balance shaft using a press fit, it may be possible for the gear to move slightly on the balance shaft while this gear remains engaged with the gear on the crankshaft. I've been trying to determine whether the lower balance shaft and gear are machined from one piece of steel or whether the gear is pressed onto the balance shaft, but no one at any of the dealers I have called knows the answer. I probably need to communicate with someone in Mattighofen to get an accurate answer.

    Until I determine that the lower balance shaft is machined from one piece of steel, or that the pressed-on gear on the lower balance shaft is "keyed" to the balance shaft, I cannot reject the possibility that the gear on the lower balance shaft may have moved slightly on the balance shaft. With tricky problems like this vibration situation it's best not to reject a hypothesis unless there is absolute certainty that the hypothesis is impossible, or a solution that proves the origin of the problem lay elsewhere has been found.
    Last edited by 450Gauleiter; 11-09-2019 at 02:05 PM.

  10. #39

    Default Re: 2019 690 Enduro high frequency vibration in handlebars

    Quote Originally Posted by pushstart View Post
    A manufacturer can begin the recall process by informing the NHTSA or the NHTSA can start one themselves once they are aware of a problem.First you have to figure out why the part failed.Was it a bad worker,poor material or poor design or other outside influence? Then you have to come up with a countermeasure that is successful .Not all of them are the first time around like Takata airbags.Making the improved part takes time as does informing the registered owners.Of course some manufacturers drag their feet hoping a problem remains"small". KTM has treated me and my friends well.


    The idea of KTM initiating a recall for clutch slave cylinders made me laugh.

    If KTM had the attitude which would cause them to do such a recall, the old version of the slave would never have been installed in a bike that was manufactured in 2019
    , because it's been known for well over a year that the slave cylinder in question was a bad design that had an extremely high failure rate.

    I understand what you say about KTM having treated you and your friends well. However, your positive experience does not invalidate the unfortunate experience I have had. All your good experiences mean is that you had good experiences. Would you tell a starving man about how much you enjoyed a huge meal you had the day before ? No ? Then why are you making the comments about how well KTM treated you in my thread ? Such comments are of zero value relative to solving the problem my 690 has, and I do not feel even slightly better about KTM as a result of your good experiences.

    As others have pointed out, a dealer can make a crucial difference in whether you get the help you need ( or not ). I maintain that it is a serious mistake on KTM USA's part to make it impossible for customers to deal directly with KTM USA when a dealer falls short, because there are a lot of dealers out there who are simply not good dealers.

    I have my own ideas about why the earlier version of that clutch slave failed. I believe the clearances on the part were incorrect and caused the clutch pushrod to constantly rotate the piston in the slave cylinder while the engine was running. The constant rotation of the piston would accelerate wear on the slave piston's seals. This is just a theory I came up with after looking closely at the old slave and the new version slave side by side. I could of course be wrong about this.

    The key point is that KTM should not have installed these old-design parts in 2019 bikes. That KTM kept installing the old design in new bikes indicates KTM has serious quality control problems, and the truth of this is self-evident when you have had two clutch slaves of the old design fail within a few weeks in the same 2019 motorcycle. The new-design slave is working fine so far, and it is a shame the new-design slave was not installed when the bike was built in January 2019, because the new-design slaves were available at that time. In a company which had used good quality control practices, the old slaves would not have been available for the workers to install in a 2019 motorcycle.

    Again, KTM has serious problems with quality control, and anyone who would claim otherwise either has a hidden agenda or doesn't know much about KTM.
    Last edited by 450Gauleiter; 11-09-2019 at 02:42 PM.

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