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Thread: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

  1. #1

    Default Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    So assuming a fully stock stack.. on a hypothetical OC fork, Properly sprung, Fresh seals and bushings.. Std example setting list attached..

    Thinking of a rally bike or adventure setup for crossing “developing” continents

    What would someone do that would have a minimally acceptable affect on LS .. BUT take the teeth chattering out of high speed chop. In my opinion.. HS chop is the worst of the worst.. I’ll take high speed rolling sandy whopped g outs and front fender kissing boots in the back of my helmet stoppies all day before subjecting myself to hellish periods of chop..

    Deep rutted perpendicular washboard or kms of square edged potholes 18 inches across and 4 inches deep at 90kmph.

    Is there hope?
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  3. #2

    Default Re: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    As I don’t like some bringing a problem without suggesting a solution....
    What about adding a crossover to the base valve.. a 14 or 16 after the stack of 24’s and adding a 6x8x.1 as a clamp before the 9.5x.30?
    And raising the 16 one level on the mid and swapping it with the 11?
    Would that make it to soft?

  4. #3

    Default Re: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    Ok.. let’s try this another way..
    Looking at the MV..
    Do you think the 12x.1 is a crossover and the 16x.15 is the secondary stack with the 11 as it’s clamp?
    Or is the the 12 the clamp for the 18’s, the 16 is a “semi firm” base.. and the 11 is taking up space?
    Or.. something else?

  5. #4

    Default Re: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    Quote Originally Posted by TCE View Post
    So assuming a fully stock stack.. on a hypothetical OC fork, Properly sprung, Fresh seals and bushings.. Std example setting list attached..

    Thinking of a rally bike or adventure setup for crossing “developing” continents

    What would someone do that would have a minimally acceptable affect on LS .. BUT take the teeth chattering out of high speed chop. In my opinion.. HS chop is the worst of the worst.. I’ll take high speed rolling sandy whopped g outs and front fender kissing boots in the back of my helmet stoppies all day before subjecting myself to hellish periods of chop..

    Deep rutted perpendicular washboard or kms of square edged potholes 18 inches across and 4 inches deep at 90kmph.

    Is there hope?
    Looks like you have the same fork, year?

    how much do you weigh and what springs?

  6. #5

    Default Re: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    I do have a 15 500, but its mostly stock. Currently use it for mostly fast trails ( in the jungle, I live at 200M ) and some enduro training when the 300 isn't available-
    This September, there is a 900km 3 day rally up in the mountains ( 3000-4800M ). I don't know if I will be participating, it would be my first rally with a Roadbook, ICO, etc-
    I just know that the terrain up there is brutal.. all rocks.. loose junk..dust.. ruts.. potholes. etc.. its mostly all on "roads" that are 4x4 and 4x2 passable.. with means potholes.. many of them and for days. ---No mud.. no logs.. no rivers.. All which I handle quite well on I believe--- and I know that no bike i've ever owned ( other than my old XR600R ) loves them- I can't rent a 450 Rally Replica -- I also don't have much availability to tinker.. take them up there and abuse them after testing and make corrections :/

    I am 220 riding with RT .48 springs up front and RT P20 8.1 in the rear-
    Is there much wiggle room in the HS? Or should I just leave them as is, as they are pretty nice "universally friendly" right now out of the box ( when they have fresh liquid and bushings )

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    Sub tanks. Valve it for rocks and raise the oil level. Then tune bottoming with subtank valves. I'll send you a bill.

  8. #7

    Default Re: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    Quote Originally Posted by TCE View Post
    I do have a 15 500, but its mostly stock. :/

    I am 220 riding with RT .48 springs up front and RT P20 8.1 in the rear-
    Is there much wiggle room in the HS? Or should I just leave them as is, as they are pretty nice "universally friendly" right now out of the box ( when they have fresh liquid and bushings )

    Im about 230/235lb with gear , but Ive also been 220 lb, the .48 should work for rocks, but Its been my find, quality size and consistency amongst spring brands can vary Greatly. I mean if you buy a spring you expect it to meet oem length spec, not one spring 1/2inch shorter, or both, cause that effects the preload. So Im very picky in that regard, with WP spec'd springs. Honda SS7 oil

    With stock fork valving 4.8nm I was running 110mm oil height on the 500, my sticky notes say 22comp/19rb with 2 turns of preload(stock setting).

    Now, when you talk about running high speed and hitting successive deep cross ruts, yeah that was the flaw of .48's, but they should be okay for slow rocks.

    as to the rear ktm stock (high speed) is 1.5 turn out, horrible hydraulic action, that heavier rear spring, you should be able to back off HS atleast to near 1.6 turn out. I was running an 8.0 kg rear and utilized about 1.5 turn out with about 2mm further out, around 15c/23rb settings.


    anyway, im running 5.0 nm front springs at the moment 120mm oil 24c/15 r (1.5 turn in on preload) ( I believe I measured actual preload around 7mm inside the fork) , which is better on the high speed deep cross ruts. Heck I ran 5.2 springs for a year 130mm oil, which turned out to be too much spring, and I dropped back down, and im getting older, and hurt both shoulder in a couple mishaps. But the 5.0nm seems plenty and better. Im running a csr 8.5/9.5nm rear and the reason for that is the 8.0kg couldn't take big jump face hits, but I did have to go out to about 1.6 or 1.7 on Hspeed. 7.5mm preload, 33 mm static, 110mm rider.

    so anyway, To your question, theres HUge wiggle room with Hspeed on the rear(whether it works or not is another question) , but on your forks, im not clear on how you have them set up, cause they shouldnt be bad for slow rocks.

    I wonder if you are trying to run your valving too closed up, causing issues, but then with the wrong set up, too open they blow too deep in the storke, and its harsh , can be tough to find the balance that works everywhere
    Last edited by spud786; 01-14-2020 at 08:38 PM.

  9. #8

    Default Re: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    @lew
    That’s interesting. Sub tanks.. with the extra valves to “control” the air spring ..
    I’ll need to read up more on sub tanks before I send you a check in a currency you couldn’t cash

    A few days ago I was wanting to ask “everyone” to help define what “rocks”, eastern enduro, SoCal, west coast, Georgia mud, and all sorts of other regional differences meant when they referred to their types of riding. Logs and mud I get
    I’ve spent the past several weeks picking through a lot of the topics in the “technical” suspension ( as it only goes back a few years ) and I’ve started to work my way back though the “standard” suspension archives as well. But I wouldn’t have assumed that what I was referring to was considered “rocks” .. I guess what I see as rocks are like what you see on the “graham Jarvis fan page” or something like that. Some guy picking himself through Carl’s diner in Erzberg- “Slow” but consistent. ( not calling graham slow ) Dry river beds and the like. What I would think as slower shaft speeds. But you guys know these specs better than I do-

    Maybe that’s a different topic to start.. Defining baselines.. for us new guys-
    Last edited by TCE; 01-14-2020 at 08:42 PM.

  10. #9

    Default Re: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    Better yet TCE, we'll ask whats wrong with 2015 OC fork valving , from my perspective is pretty leinier valving . I had race tec valve a fork for me twice one time, screwed them up.

  11. #10

    Default Re: Adjusting a midvalve / basevalve for brutal repetitive HS pounding-

    Quote Originally Posted by spud786 View Post
    Im about 230/235lb with gear , but Ive also been 220 lb, the .48 should work for rocks, but Its been my find, quality size and consistency amongst spring brands can vary Greatly. I mean if you buy a spring you expect it to meet oem length spec, not one spring 1/2inch shorter, or both, cause that effects the preload. So Im very picky in that regard, with WP spec'd springs. Honda SS7 oil

    With stock fork valving 4.8nm I was running 110mm oil height on the 500, my sticky notes say 22comp/19rb with 2 turns of preload(stock setting).

    Now, when you talk about running high speed and hitting successive deep cross ruts, yeah that was the flaw of .48's, but they should be okay for slow rocks.

    as to the rear ktm stock (high speed) is 1.5 turn out, horrible hydraulic action, that heavier rear spring, you should be able to back off HS atleast to near 1.6 turn out. I was running an 8.0 kg rear and utilized about 1.5 turn out with about 2mm further out, around 15c/23rb settings.


    anyway, im running 5.0 nm front springs at the moment 120mm oil 24c/15 r (1.5 turn in on preload) ( I believe I measured actual preload around 7mm inside the fork) , which is better on the high speed deep cross ruts. Heck I ran 5.2 springs for a year 130mm oil, which turned out to be too much spring, and I dropped back down, and im getting older, and hurt both shoulder in a couple mishaps. But the 5.0nm seems plenty and better. Im running a csr 8.5/9.5nm rear and the reason for that is the 8.0kg couldn't take big jump face hits, but I did have to go out to about 1.6 or 1.7 on Hspeed. 7.5mm preload, 33 mm static, 110mm rider.

    so anyway, To your question, theres HUge wiggle room with Hspeed on the rear(whether it works or not is another question) , but on your forks, im not clear on how you have them set up, cause they shouldnt be bad for slow rocks.

    I wonder if you are trying to run your valving too closed up, causing issues, but then with the wrong set up, too open they blow too deep in the storke, and its harsh , can be tough to find the balance that works everywhere
    Thanks spud..
    That’s similar to what I’ve found.. especially in regards to the rear.. in at 35/105 sag with the p20.
    “Normal rougher slow enduro” picking my way through the jungle or the front range.. mud.. logs., some quick sections but slow in down for trickier stuff.. I like it firmed up.. 1.5 turns out or slightly less with 16c
    But when I was at 1,5 or less turns out in the rear and it got really choppy and long sections of just really beat up hard pack track ( kms and kms ) I found i would just get tired and sloppy and it kicked me “back up on ” on to the fork which made the condition worse. When I went to 1.75-2 turns out and was running 18c the bike started to balance out better ( CLARIFYING THAT 99% of this is me standing and in an aggressive riding position ) Rebound seems to be consistently between 20 and 22 regardless of the chop..

    Forks-
    I am running race tech brand springs. 2mm measured preload internal - zero turns on the cap. Homemade internal spacers to get down to 2mm. Motul factory 5w ( thinnest I can get consistently here, I used to run 2.5 but they stopped importing it. I think I was actually the only one here who used it ). I was running 130mm level for years.. but last fill stepped up to 120 and it felt “slightly better”. Possibly.. firmer yes.. but also a few % more compliant?? I also added Xplorer 1 bottoming cup and spring guide and that affect the last bit of travel.. I think that the combo of the higher oil level and the adjusted HSS in the rear helped balance last Saturday when I was out in a rough link section.. it wasn’t “as bad” as historical and made me really consider that this was something I wanted to consider trying to attack. And not just run flex bars and take it ( I do run flexx bars.. and they do rock! )
    General fast pace clickers are 16c/18r up front. If I recall. I think my feelings were that I wanted to go in a bit more on the rb to try to determine if part of what I was feeling was the stronger springs overcoming the rebound stack ( something that came up in a discussion with the 7K gentleman )

    I’m typing this on a mini tablet, so it’s hard to get back and forth to see your whole post, but I think that I’ve answered or addressed most of what you mentioned..

    I appreciate your insights-

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